Profile configuration for GA aircraft – yoke physics

[mauricecohen]

I have received my CLS-E yoke last week and after setting up profiles (by modifying profiles downloaded from the Profile Cloud) for the default Cessna C172, Baron B58 and King Air C90B in X-Plane 11 and flying the three aircraft for a short time, I have some initial questions.

First, in the Yoke physics column of the General tab in the CLS2Sim Profile Manager, there are 2 boxes/settings for the elevator: 1) Yoke moves forward under weight of the elevator, with a minimum speed at which the yoke starts to move back and a larger speed at which the yoke is pushed back to the middle position; 2) Yoke and elevator are affected by prop wash, with a field for engine idle thrust and one for maximal engine thrust, at which the yoke pitch axis should have reached the middle position. These 2 boxes/settings are not independent. If I check both boxes for the elevator, they both come into play in the take-off run; do I have to match the second speed field in the first box to the maximal engine thrust in the second box?

Second, again relating to the Yoke physics and the effect of prop wash: none of the profiles in the Profile Cloud have the Aileron box checked. What are the pros and cons of checking the Aileron box there? Any significant difference to be expected between low wing and high wing aircraft? between single engine and twins?

Third, I have noticed a tendency to roll to the left while on level flight (roll force between -175 and -200) in the 172 and the C90B – not so much in the B58. Is that the result of one of my settings? or is it because of the flight physics of the planes in XP11? Anything I can do to mitigate it?

Finally, with both the C172 and the C90B (I do not remember it happening with the Baron) a few times after landing, slowing down and after the yoke has moved forward under the weight of the elevator, the yoke swings full left with roll force -400 and returns full left if moved right; it stays full left under that force even after shutting the engine(s). Any thoughts about what might cause this?

Thank you in advance for your help.

MC

PS The three profiles are zipped and attached

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[mauricecohen]

To elaborate a bit on the third point in my post above, I fully realize that for all 3 aircraft in question the prop/engine torque comes into play. I just think that for the C172 it is somewhat too high (I fly the C172) and I am looking for a way to reduce the left roll tendency. I have no experience in the B58 or C90B (or any multi-engine plane), so I do not know if the ~ (-175 to -200) force is realistic and, in the end, it does not matter as much as in the C172 since I can use aileron trim in these 2 planes to tweak their behavior.

[Diego Bürgin]

Hi Maurice

Thanks for immediately uploading the profiles, that way I can test a lot better.

To your first question about the yoke physics:

Airspeed and Prop wash are calculated independent from each other, so you don’t have to match speed to thrust.
Also important to note is that the effects are not cumulative and the speed settings as well as the thrust settings are not exact settings and have to be fine-tuned through try and error. This is because the firmware of the yoke factors in other components such as friction and dampening, effectively changing the thresholds to some degree.

Second:
The aileron box is unused in any plane I know of. It was integrated to help us test the yoke physics separately when supporting users, as the aileron is affected by less of our software components than the elevator. So setting the effect on the aileron allows us to test if that particular setting works with less interference from other systems.

Third:
What does the position value for aileron at the top of the profile manager say?
Can you make a screen shot of the profile manager when that occurs?
I assume you did you make sure that aileron trim in X-Plane is set to zero.
I have so far observed that behaviour with I think almost all standard planes in X-Plane 9 up to 11
and it also occurred when using a USB joystick instead of the Brunner CLS.
I assumed it to be a issue of center of gravity, or an imperfection build in to encourage the use of aileron trim.

Final issue:
Same as above, a screen shot will help me determine what could trigger this.

Happy landings
Diego

[mauricecohen]

Hello Diego,

Thank you for your response. Here are some comments after quoting you:

“Airspeed and Prop wash are calculated independent from each other. Also important to note is that the effects are not cumulative”
Knowing this, I now see why I had a bit of difficulty setting these and I will have to adjust them.

“I assume you did you make sure that aileron trim in X-Plane is set to zero.”
Yes, that is the first thing I thought of and made sure all trims were set to zero and verified that with data output.

“I have so far observed that behaviour with I think almost all standard planes in X-Plane 9 up to 11”
This surprises me; as I mention in my second post, I attribute this to prop/engine torque and it should not occur in twins with counter-rotating props or jets. I will test and report back. I will also try to reduce the effect in the C172 (using plane maker?) to match my muscle-memory of using just 2 fingers on the yoke to counteract the left roll.

“Can you make a screen shot of the profile manager when that occurs?” “Same as above, a screen shot will help me determine what could trigger this.”
I will use the weekend to do a lot of flying with my new yoke and take a screen-shot whenever a question occurs.

“Thanks for immediately uploading the profiles, that way I can test a lot better.”
I would welcome any suggestion you have about how to improve the profiles I have set.

Best regards,

Maurice

[mauricecohen]

Diego,

I have tested extensively in the default X-Plane 11 C172 and B58 the third (roll left tendency) and final (hard move left of the yoke after slowing down upon landing) issues that I raised my first post. I have determined that the roll left tendency is the result of X-Plane modelling of the prop/engine torque and not any setting in the CLS2Sim. I also have not been able to replicate the final issue after adjusting the min and max values for the elevator being affected by speed and engine thrust (prop wash).

I have had a lot of difficulty with the trim and autopilot settings, however. I found that the instructions in the section “Adjusting an X-Plane plane for realistic trim using PlaneMaker and choosing the right CLS2Sim settings” are just bad advice. Following the instructions makes the VSI inaccurate and the autopilot non-functional for both the C172 and the B58. What seems to works in the end is to NOT change the values in Plane Maker (Trim and Speed) AND also set the “Don’t set pos in AP mode (Roll)” TICKED.

I will next test the default King Air C90B and let you know what I find.

All the best,

Maurice

[mauricecohen]

I am still struggling with trim and autopilot on the XP11 default 172, B58 and C90, whether or not I change the up and down values to 0 in Plane Maker (Trim and Speed).

I read on a post on the X-Plane forum thread that Hardware Trim works best. Can you please tell me what this means:

Hardware Trim
CLS2Sim decouples the trim functionality from the simulation. Consequently the simulation has no knowledge of the current trim setting of the yoke and most commercial trim controls will not work out of the box. To help circumvent this limitation, the remote control interface of CLS2Sim provides read and write access to the hardware trim data, allowing third-party software to interact with it.

in my situation? I have a separate pitch trim wheel on a Saitek autopilot panel. How precisely do I select settings for trim and autopilot to be able to use the autopilot and more importantly to disengage it without sudden change I attitude?

Thank you.

[mauricecohen]

Let me add to the above.

With Hardware Trim selected, the Trim Up and Trim Down buttons on the yoke trim without corresponding effect on the sim’s trim. At the same time the Saitek’s trim wheel operates independently on the sim’s trim. On the other hand, the autopilot uses the sim’s trim to operate. So, what is the point of using Hardware Trim?

[mauricecohen]

Here is a detailed description of the problem with using the autopilot on the XP11 default 172.

I have modified the plane’s .acf file as indicated in the CLS2Sim Help file and in the video by S Brunner using Plane Maker. The .acf lie is attached (Cessna_172SP.zip)

I have edited and used the 172 profile by S Brunner from the cloud (keeping the Software trim option). The profile is attached (Cessna 172 XP11.zip)

I take off in the plane, maintain the runway heading, climb at 700 t/min, set the VS on the autopilot to 700, engage the autopilot and VS. The plane continues to climb, BUT AT 800 FT/MIN as shown on the VSI and the elevator trim in the sim moves steadily and rapidly to its maximum down position. Except for the discrepancy in vertical speed between the value shown on the autopilot and the value on the VSI, the autopilot and the plane seem to function.

But, as you can guess because of the position of the elevator trim, as soon as I disengage the autopilot. the plane dives and accelerates and it is impossible to recover. Attached is a screenshot of the Profile manager to show the pitch values.

I have had the yoke for 2 weeks and I am still looking for basic help.

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[mauricecohen]

PS Here is a question that I should have included in the post above: Given that the autopilot works if one does not change the Trim and Speed values, does it mean that in X-Plane one can have realistic trim OR autopilot but NOT BOTH. My experience seems to indicate, yes, not both.

[Diego Bürgin]

Hi Maurice

Just to let you know we haven’t forgotten you.
I’ve seen the screenshots you made. Thanks for that.
We’re all still out of office due to holidays and I don’t have the tools nor the hardware needed to test here.
I’ll be back on the 6th of August and will look into it as soon as I’ve dug through my email mountain.

Best regards
Diego

[mauricecohen]

Diego,

Enjoy the rest of your vacation.

All the best,

Maurice

[mauricecohen]

“Just to let you know we haven’t forgotten you”

It appears that you have forgotten me after all.

[sbrunner]

Hi

Be a bit patient, these things take time, Diego is working on this and other things an update is coming until end of August

Regards

Stefan

[mauricecohen]

I am glad to hear that an update is coming. Here are two things that I have found beyond my original posts.

In X-Plane 11, for the default B58 and C90, after landing, slowing down and after the yoke has moved forward under the weight of the elevator, the yoke swings full left with significant roll force. This does not happen with the default 172. (I was mistaken initially about the planes affected by this, about the fact that it was intermittent and later, also mistaken about it being corrected by adjusting the min and max values for the elevator being affected by speed and engine thrust. In fact, it seems that for these 2 planes this behavior is consistently present whether or not either one or both of the boxes are checked, and what values are entered, in Profile manager/General/Yoke physics.)

I have observed that in CLS Profile manager, if 2 profiles are linked to the same aircraft, but neither is set as preferred, only the one that appears first can be used; to use the one that is listed second it must be set as preferred, and then the only way to use the first is to completely remove the link to the second (it might be useful to be able to just remove the preferred tag)

I now have 6 profiles that I use and test (1 hardware trim and 1 software trim for each of the 172, B58 and C90). The most significant change with respect to the ones I attached earlier is the big increase in the CLS Profile manager/Autopilot/Force values. In case they are of interest, I am attaching a zip file containing the 6 profiles.

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[mauricecohen]

Please ignore this statement in my previous post: “… and then the only way to use the first is to completely remove the link to the second (it might be useful to be able to just remove the preferred tag).” I realize now that one can “move” the preferred tag to a different profile.

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