CLS E trim behavior with X Plane 11

[jovabra]

Something about trim in the ZIBO mod B737-800.
Pitch trim doesn’t move your yoke but only the stabilo and you you can hear it while spinning.
The mechanical back-up system is the rotating wheel with a folded handle.
During the flight and the AP in command the flight control computers neutralize any presence of any small up/down position of the elevator.
If the flight control computer detect a little signal input from the elevator sensor they adjust the stabilo and NOT the elevator.
There is no any kind of movement of your yoke. If you disconnect the AP there is no (or little) nose up/down action of the aircraft.
If you see my settings you see i have unchecked the pitch trim compenstion and the “use harware trim.
Wy i didn’t unchecked the Roll an Yaw? If you are in a real aircraft (i did it for many years) and you are use roll trim your yoke is rotating left or right als for the rudder
You can test is if you use my uploaded profile – Test 737 John v Braam

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[webmaximus]

Many thanks for your input John, much appreciated!

Are you a real 737 NG pilot?

I’ve compared your profile to mine and found some interesting differences:

– On the Effects tab, you don’t have the stick shaker enabled, any particular reason for that?

– On the Axis Range settings tab, you don’t have the backlash option enabled. Here’s why I chose to enable it when flying the Zibo mod

– On the Axis Range settings tab, you on the other hand have Deadzone for Roll set at 2 where I have it set at 0. Not fully sure what the difference is between Backlash and Deadzone

– On the Axis Range settings tab looking at the Linearity Settings, you don’t have nonlinear output enabled for either one of the axes. Where I have nonlinear
output enabled for both axes. This after receiving input from a real airliner pilot who never flew the 737 NG but lots of other aircraft types including the 747 and a myriad of other aircraft types. He is also the guy who developed the flight model in the Zibo mod. This is where he told me to “…change linearity so that change states near stick center are much smaller and “ramp up” smoothly after about 20-25 % stick movement.”

– On the Axis force settings tab, you have Initial Scale factor for Roll set at 206 where I have it set at it’s default value of 100

– On the Axis force settings tab looking at the Force Setting, it looks you did some changes as well compared to what I have. Can’t recall I touched these myself. Also I’m not sure if any settings on this tab will have any effect when you have hydraulics enabled on the Hydraulics tab?

– On the Autopilot tab, you have Trim to zero on disable enabled for the Pitch axis but don’t think this will have any effect when not having hardware trim enabled

– On the Autopilot tab, you have Percent of way used by AP set at 100 for both Pitch and Roll where I have it set at 200. I increased this value to make the Brunner yoke movements better match what I see in the virtual cockpit of the Zibo mod

– On the Autopilot tab, you have On overpower, disable AP. I never got this to work in the Zibo mod. Having it set like this, you will feel how the AP has been disconnected in the physical yoke. However, the AP will still be connected in the Zibo mod. At least that has been my experience when I played around with this

– On the Hydraulics tab, we use different values. How did you come up with your values? Since these values seem to be the most important ones when it comes to how much force is actually required to move the yoke. Unfortunately, the values for Hydraulics Failure Force won’t make any difference in the Zibo mod since the plugin for CLS2Sim doesn’t seem to be able to communicate with the Zibo mod in this regard. Have been asking both Lubos (the dev of the Zibo mod) as well as Diego (the dev of CLS2Sim) about this and hopefully, we might one day have support for this

– On the Trim tab, you have it enabled for Roll with Trim Compensation checked. I don’t have anything checked on this page

Sorry for the wall of text which I’m sure this will end up being. Just wanted to comment in as much detail as possible since we are quite a number of people flying the Zibo mod using Brunner hardware where we all have as our top prio goal to find CLS2Sim settings that mimic the feel in the real 737 NG as close as possible.

[jovabra]

Hi Richard,
No i’m not a pilot. I’m a retired EASA Part 66 aircraft ground engineer B1 and B2. (B747/200/300 – DC10 – A310 – B767 and B777)
I have no special reason for disabling the stick shaker option. Bad pilot 🙂
You know there are a lot of problems in the beginning, but now the interface working almost perfect. Thanks to ZIBO and BRUNNER.
Some settings are more or less: try and error and see what is going on.
The settings in my profile are not exclusief for the ZIBO but also for other aircraft.

Axis range Tab. dead zone.
I have many times a unwanted AP disconnect due to the sensitivity of of the aircraft. From memery: IXEG737 classic.

About the Linearity settings is also a general setting for more than only the ZIBO 737.
If you also fly for example the 717 and you observed the animated yoke in the cockpit yand you give a 5deg left/right yoke turn the
animated yoke in the cockpit is in the full left/right position.
So every simulated aircraft has its peculiarity

“– On the Axis force settings tab, you have Initial Scale factor for Roll set at 206 where I have it set at it’s default value of 100

– On the Axis force settings tab looking at the Force Setting, it looks you did some changes as well compared to what I have. Can’t recall I touched these myself. Also I’m not sure if any settings on this tab will have any effect when you have hydraulics enabled on the Hydraulics tab?”

For this observation a have no good answer. It may be because of the “zero” point feeling in the yoke.

“– On the Autopilot tab, you have Trim to zero on disable enabled for the Pitch axis but don’t think this will have any effect when not having hardware trim enabled”

In this case my trim funtion in all “big” aircrafts are working as it should be, (X-plane and Prepar3D) but don’t forget the settings of the button (4-5) control to Trim up/down.

– On the Autopilot tab, you have On overpower, disable AP. I never got this to work in the Zibo mod. Having it set like this, you will feel how the AP has been disconnected in the physical yoke. However, the AP will still be connected in the Zibo mod. At least that has been my experience when I played around with this

Go to the ZIBO version 3.34 RC3.0 IPAD Hardware settings:
Yoke Auto Center OFF – BRUNNER Hardware ON

About the Hydraulic force on the yoke.
From memory how i did come up: In the 737 maintenace manual is a disciption about the flightcontrol force check during maintenance. Hydraulic systems ON and check the breake-out force to move the control wheel out the zero position. I know this is a static check and without any kind of speed input(If i can find this figures i let you know)
For example: the elevator is “speed related -more speed more force. For rudder you have Rudder ratio. More speed less – less deflection and for the 737 Aileron?? And for the 767-747-777 you have aileron lockout. At high speed (ca. >180kts) no outboard ailerons

– On the Trim tab, you have it enabled for Roll with Trim Compensation checked. I don’t have anything checked on this page

I have no explanation why. A left over from….?

Keep in mind, my profile is a general profile for various aircraft types and not special for the ZIBO737. The trim functions is for all Boeing airplane the same.

Regards John

[webmaximus]

Thanks again John for your detailed response!

Deadzone: I recall reading in the documentation how deadzone in CLS2Sim is not the conventional deadzone affecting the centered position but rather the opposite (the far ends of the travel) while backlash in CLS2Sim corresponds to the conventional deadzone, meaning the centered position. So, if this is true, I’m a bit surprised how this helped you with AP disconnects.

Linearity: I might be completely wrong, but I thought these settings would affect how the yoke feels in manual flight. Not how the yoke moves with the AP engaged. For that, I thought you would use the Percent of way used by AP on the Autopilot tab.

Axis force: Here, I’m not fully sure as mentioned in my previous reply if any of these settings actually matter when you have hydraulics enabled on the Hydraulics tab. I might play around with it a bit trying to figure it out.

Trim to zero on disable: Same here, as mentioned in my last reply I’m a bit puzzled when you say this has an effect even when you don’t have hardware trim enabled. Especially since it’s even saying in CLS2Sim (Hardware trim only).

On overpower, disable AP: I already have those options you mention in the Zibo EFB set like you suggest. Haven’t tried this lately though. So might be worth giving it another go now in the latest version of the Zibo mod. How do you have the YOKE MOVEMENT setting in the Zibo EFB set – OFF, DISCO AP or CWS?

Hydraulic Force: This I think is the easiest one to understand, the higher the value, the more force will be required to move the yoke. This is also the setting where I think input from a real driver would be super useful! So hard to know what it should feel like in different kind of aircraft based on pure information found in text.

The problems as I see it setting the Brunner yoke up properly for any specific aircraft type is twofold. First, it’s very hard to know you did it correctly when you don’t know what it feels like in the real aircraft. Secondly, I still find it quite hard to understand all different options in CLS2Sim even after playing around a lot with it since I got my CLS-E yoke.

One thing that would be really awesome and super helpful would be if Brunner could “hire” a couple of real world pilots for the most common aircraft types and have them come up with profiles for their respective aircraft types they’re flying IRL. Their experience in combination with Brunner’s knowledge how their software works would do miracles I’m sure in having profiles that truly match what you would feel IRL in each aircraft type.

And quite frankly, considering the huge investment it is getting a Brunner unit, I don’t think it would be unreasonable. It’s quite common these days real pilots were helping out with the flight model and the characteristics of a specific aircraft model when you buy an addon aircraft. Which usually costs only a fraction of the price for a Brunner unit.

And don’t get me wrong. Of course the steep price you pay when getting a Brunner unit is mainly for the top quality piece of equipment you’re getting. I just think it’s a bit sad many people myself included won’t be able to fully enjoy the full potential of their Brunner devices for the reasons stated above.

Personally, I would be more than happy to pay for a “real” 737 NG profile fine-tuned by a real 737 NG pilot together with Brunner guys to make sure every option and setting available in both the software and hardware is used in the best possible and realistic way. Maybe a new business idea for you guys over at Brunner 😉

Would be awesome if Stefan, Diego or someone else would care to comment on this.

[jovabra]

Add info about disconnecting the AP in the ZIBO.
Go to the realism settings and select Yoke movement /DISCO AP/
About CWS option i think it is more a airline option. CWS is more a old fashioned manual power steering.

Totally agree with your statement about the force and a real 737 profile.
And please don’t forget my profile is NOT only the ZIBO. I thinks that some option have no effect in the ZIBO but in other
X-plane-Prepar3D aircrafts

About the deadzone i will perform a test with some other aircrafts
Regards

[webmaximus]

Thanks for the HU about the disconnect AP on overpower setting for the Zibo. Will try it out on next flight and will be very happy if it’s working now!

Last time I tried, it did not work as previously mentioned. As I recall it, I had two issues. Having the option in the Zibo EFB set as you suggest would constantly disconnect the AP even when I didn’t overpower the yoke movements. Reason for this I guess is how it’s hard for the Zibo mod to determine if the yoke movement is caused by you or the yoke itself simply following the FDs like it should with AP engaged.

My suggestion to Zibo how this could possibly be fixed was to implement a check if the yoke current position corresponds with the FDs. If that’s the case, the AP should NOT be disconnected. If the yoke on the other hand doesn’t correspond with the FDs, that would likely mean I overpowered the yoke and the AP SHOULD be disconnected.

I never got a reply from Zibo about this but maybe he already implemented it if it now works without letting me know. Or he found another way fixing it. Regardless, I’m very much looking forward to try it out on next flight!

As for deadzone vs backlash, I did a quick test in the Zibo mod and could clearly see how having backlash enabled with the value of 2.0 which is in my profile would add a small spot in the yoke’s centered position where the yoke in the Zibo mod v/c wouldn’t move. Same thing for both axes. The zone where it wouldn’t move was very small though even when using the max value for backlash which I think is 2.0, the value I’m already using.

But it seems to work OK, so all good!

Great having these discussions in here! Since the fist day I bought my CLS-E yoke, I’ve felt a bit “alone” with very few people sharing ideas and experiences with. Which I don’t think is very strange considering the low amount of people using Brunner hardware vs other “normal” controllers such as CH, Saitek etc.

Still hoping we will have some feedback from Brunner on what we’ve discussed so far.

[jovabra]

Update about the “dead zone”. This is a left over from the IXEG 737 classic. My setting is now 0
Checked again in the ZIBO for the AP disconnect during overpower the yoke in roll and it works
without any problems.
Settings in the ZIBO Ipad:
Realism settings: Yoke movement: DISCO AP
Hardware settings: Yoke Auto Center: OFF
and BRUNNER hardware: ON
Regards

[webmaximus]

This is excellent news!

And the AP don’t disconnect when the yoke moves automatically to follow the FDs? Because I remember that was the issue I had last time trying this out.

And you of course also have the disconnect AP on overpower enabled in CLS2Sim?

Looking forward to test it again on next flight!

[webmaximus]

Finally had the chance to try this out tonight but I’m sorry to say I still see the same problem here even when using the settings you suggest.

Using the latest version of both CLS2Sim and the Zibo mod as of writing, my AP will disconnect in the Zibo a/c as soon as the physical yoke moves along the roll axis to follow the FDs. Just how I remember it from the past when I first reported this problem both to Brunner and Zibo.

Not a super big deal really but would be very nice if it could somehow be fixed. And I think that is on Zibo where he could maybe use the method I suggested back then to add a condition where he makes sure the AP won’t disconnect as long as the movement of the yoke corresponds with what is commanded by the FDs.

[jovabra]

Hi all,
I checked again. My settings etc;

1. CLS2Sim V4.201. Profile “Test 737″ Author J van Braam”
2. X-PLANE11 V11.34
3. ZIBO mod 3.34 RC3.7 (4k)
4. Unchecked in X-PLANE Use experimental flight model
5. Unchecked in X-PLANE Damage….
6. In the ZIBO Ipad-EFB “Hardware Control” Item Yoke Auto Center OFF and BRUNNER ON
7. In the ZIBO Ipad-EFB “Realism Setting” Item Yoke movement DISCO
If you engage the Auto Pilot the yoke reponds in the Pitch and Roll cahnnel and if you overpowerd the yoke you’ve got a AP disconnect.
So everything functions like the real plane
Succes and regards

[webmaximus]

Thanks for checking again and great to hear how it’s working the way it should for you.

Still puzzled why it doesn’t for me using the very same settings and versions of CLS2Sim, X-Plane and Zibo mod. Also puzzled how the Zibo mod knows if it’s you or the motors in the yoke that move it.

Must be something that is different in our CLS2Sim profiles I still haven’t found.

Will do another comparison and will also try your profile.

Must be more people in here flying the Zibo mod.

How is it working for you?

[jovabra]

Add info:
Check before your departure the setting in the EFB Ipad. I observed the same problem but the most setting in the EFB are changed. When i set all settings to
i had writen down before, so everything is working normal again.

BTW the firmware of my yoke is: V3.12 and my connection is
ETHERNET connection between YOKE and RUDDR and from RUDDER to USB computer
Success

[webmaximus]

OK…after trying to figure out the logic behind all this I’m ready to pull my hair.

I’ve been playing around with this for the major part of this evening and I just can’t see the logic.

If I use my Zibo profile available in the Brunner cloud, the AP will disconnect by itself as soon as the aircraft banks. Using your profile, it works fine over here as well without any AP disconnects.

Same thing if I use the default profile that comes with CLS2Sim, works just fine. However…if I change as much as one single thing in the default profile…could even be a small thing as a button assignment which would be 100% not related to this…I’m back having the same issue also with the default profile where the AP disconnects by itself as soon as the aircraft banks.

No idea if it could be a firmware thing. I’m using 3.50 rather than 3.12.

Really need to get some sleep here now but would be awesome if one of the guys from Brunner could comment on this. Or even better, try this out themselves with the Zibo mod.

[gian19]

Hi John,

I found a decent balance with my Zibo settings but I am a bit curious to test yours. Could you post screenshots of your Zibo profile? Unfortunately, I use the other version of the youke and it does not let me download your profile from the cloud.

Thanks,
Gianfranco

[jovabra]

Hi Gianfranco,
Very strange that you cannot download that profile. I think it is more a problem of the BRUNNER profile cloud. First of all some pictures about the ZIBO EFB settings.

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